"Sounds like mostly gaps of omission, then, or mistakes of emphasis if you want to put it that way."

"Give me a second and I'll pass back the underlined version of yours, with some notes.  Shouldn't take much time and seems easier than saying."

In Pharasma's Creation there are many people who don't want to exist and do not have a good way to achieve this. The overwhelming majority of those are in Hell, but probably there are also some in Abaddon and the Abyss and maybe the Maelstrom and the dungeons of various people on Golarion and planets like Golarion, plus some who are suffering and uncertain enough about their afterlife not to kill themselves despite having access to the option. They often suffer slowly in a way that changes who they are as people and means that even if at some point they stop being conscious, a version of them that landed on another planet at that point would not be very much like the person they were before they suffered so much.  [Yep.  This is the core problem.  Pharasma's unfair deal would not be a destroy-the-multiverse issue if not for this.]

This is bad under approximately every conceivable value system. Under the value system most common in dath ilan, where everyone has thought about ethics a lot more and some people are smarter, this is so bad that killing approximately 9 people whose lives are eternal and good in order to prevent one person from suffering in this way is clearly justified. Dath ilani would practically all agree on this.  [This is a values-difference, not something where it matters what another place thinks.]

It is true that people in Golarion mostly don't see it that way when they are not in Hell, but they mostly try to avoid thinking about it, and might believe false things about it. Hell lies relentlessly about what sends you there and what it's like. People in Cheliax mostly fear Hell and try not to think about it; people in other places do move mountains to avoid it. Lots of Lawful Evil people, in private, will admit that they are scared. The fact they don't atone or don't try to be Chaotic is about their suppressing thoughts of how they'll go to Hell in abject terror, not about their actual preference. Even if someone prefers Hell to nonexistence, once they've been in Hell for a little while they'll almost definitely change their mind. Even if someone does things that condemn them to Hell for the sake of protecting their children, so that their children will get to eternity in Axis instead of being eaten in Abaddon, they'll regret that choice and wish they'd chosen differently approximately as soon as Hell actually starts on them. Even if they don't for a hundred years, they will in a thousand years; even if they don't for a thousand years, they will in a hundred thousand years. People on Golarion don't know how to think about those scales. Hell deliberately discourages thinking on those scales. And it's hard to understand how bad Hell is until you are actually being tortured there; it is not a fact you can know any other way.  [Being tortured in Hell still doesn't let you do the interpersonal utility comparison we actually need.]  [Being tortured into regret of saving your children doesn't make it the wrong decision, still an awful one tho.]

Any viable plan to fix Hell, where nearly all but not all of this suffering is located, probably incurs some risk of killing everyone in the multiverse. The plan that incurs the least risk of that is probably destroying Avernus so that further people cannot go to Hell, which would not necessarily be permanent. The plans that are most definitely permanent, like killing Asmodeus and taking His job or trying to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation, incur a quite high risk of this. Plans to kill Asmodeus and take His job are probably more than 50% likely to result in His releasing Rovagug, which is probably at least 20% likely to destroy the universe and 80% likely to destroy Golarion, which may or may not be important for building Civilization within Pharasma's Creation.  [I'd maybe say more like 30% of destroying Golarion?  Currently put pretty low estimate on Golarion's importance if we can't otherwise beat Pharasma/gods.]

Plans to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation will, if they fail, fail either by Pharasma laughing at Keltham and crushing him in which case no improvements to the universe at all will be achieved, or in the entire universe being destroyed, possibly by Yog-Sothoth or something in an existentially horrifying Hell-like slow-personality-death way. Failure modes like that are very unlikely. If they succeed they might change not just Hell but also significant features of other planes that have a high rate of petitioners there being very unhappy or being eaten.  [Pharasma crush wouldn't seem that unlikely, if not for tropes.  Obvious ways to rig multiverse for destruction don't seem to me to run much Yog-Sothoth risk.]

Pharasma does not particularly share human values, and a universe run on rules set by Keltham would be much nicer for humans and similar kinds of mortals to live in, or not exist at all if making a universe that's substantially nicer to live in is not possible within these constraints.  [Didn't think I could set rules, but get them modified, sure.]

When Keltham experienced dying, he experienced showing up in Golarion. All people, when their soul is permanently deleted from existence, should anticipate having the experience of waking up somewhere else like he did. In the typical case this will not be worse than the lives that those people are currently living in Golarion. In particular the percentage of people who will turn out to have moment-of-death copies that are slaves who cannot suicide, or in Hell dimensions, or in incomprehensible conditions that alter their cognition as they kill them, is very low. The fact this is true means that being killed is much less bad than it would be if there were not copies of you in other places some of whom will remember the moment of your death. The fact this is true also means it is better to kill someone instantaneously than for them to die in a slow way that alters their personality and values, because if they die instantaneously then they'll experience continuity with a copy of them elsewhere which hasn't already changed in a way that changes their identity as a person.  [My case doesn't need to be typical, just in some sense normal or not in a distinguished region of low probability.]

It is undesirable that people will never see their families again, be separated from their children and husbands and wives, lose everything they have and were working towards, etc., but the undesirability of this is much much much smaller than the undesirability of Hell. It is probably not the case that most people would readily risk Hell to be present for their childrens' infancy and childhood, and if they say they would it is probably because they are underestimating the badness of Hell. Also under the present system many people are separated from their loved ones permanently anyway, and an ideal fix to Pharasma's Creation would improve the world along this metric.  [Not how system necessarily works.  Nice destinations can synchronize arrival of related people.]

It is not bad that people will exist about a billion times less, because it doesn't subjectively feel like anything to exist, and is not part of most human value systems in dath ilan. Those people who think it is part of their value systems would almost always reconsider if they could discuss the matter with a Keeper.  [Depends on if the less-existing were above or below Greater Reality average.  Obviously I currently guess Pharasma's Creation is below average.]  ['Keepers would disagree' kinda not how people in Civilization think, they'll add 'because it's invalid' and then eliminate the Keeper part.]

The gods as they are currently situated seem likely to stop any planet in Pharasma's Creation from building Civilization, or at least likely to stop it from spreading its discoveries to the rest of Pharasma's Creation. It seems reasonably likely that they're only presently allowing the scientific revolution because they don't see where it's headed. In the absence of intervention to change the rules and ensure Civilization is allowed to come about, it seems possible the inhabited planets within Creation will either persist for a very long time not being much better as a place to live, or else get destroyed the first time they get far enough out of equilibrium some gods want them gone, or else get destroyed by dath ilan or some force like it that is trying to maximize average happiness of instantiated minds across the multiverse. If that is a common value, which it probably is because everyone in dath ilan is very smart and it was approximately universal there, and if Pharasma's Creation is as vulnerable to destruction as it looks, then Pharasma's Creation is going to get destroyed sooner or later unless someone brings average quality of life there above a reasonable estimate of how bad the greater multiverse is.  [I'm not expecting dath ilan's utilityfunction to be common among things more powerful than Pharasma that connect to Pharasma's Creation.]

Pharasma is fundamentally the kind of entity who has no business running a multiverse, and so it is good, other things equal, to make her stop that, and it is worth at least some small probability of the multiverse being destroyed to wrest control of it from an alien entity that does not share human values unless Greater Reality is even worse. 

If the policy 'destroy bits of Greater Reality that you are not glad you landed is' is followed by all people waking up in unfamiliar universes, then maybe in the long run everyone who wakes up in an unfamiliar universe will wake up in a pretty good one, so the repeat application of this process makes it more and more of a good idea over time. The fact dath ilani were taught to think about the world this way, including game theory about cleaning up bits of Greater Reality you find yourself in where Zon-Kuthon asks for $10, suggests that dath ilan may already have calculated this is a good idea.  [Pretty sure they weren't teaching me things I'd need to know for Golarion.]  [This is mostly just a special case of rejecting bad deals, incl. Pharasma's non-deal.]

"Sounds like mostly gaps of omission, then, or mistakes of emphasis if you want to put it that way."

"Give me a second and I'll pass back the underlined version of yours, with some notes.  Shouldn't take much time and seems easier than saying."

In Pharasma's Creation there are many people who don't want to exist and do not have a good way to achieve this. The overwhelming majority of those are in Hell, but probably there are also some in Abaddon and the Abyss and maybe the Maelstrom and the dungeons of various people on Golarion and planets like Golarion, plus some who are suffering and uncertain enough about their afterlife not to kill themselves despite having access to the option. They often suffer slowly in a way that changes who they are as people and means that even if at some point they stop being conscious, a version of them that landed on another planet at that point would not be very much like the person they were before they suffered so much.  [Yep.  This is the core problem.  Pharasma's unfair deal would not be a destroy-the-multiverse issue if not for this.]

This is bad under approximately every conceivable value system. Under the value system most common in dath ilan, where everyone has thought about ethics a lot more and some people are smarter, this is so bad that killing approximately 9 people whose lives are eternal and good in order to prevent one person from suffering in this way is clearly justified. Dath ilani would practically all agree on this.  [This is a values-difference, not something where it matters what another place thinks.]

It is true that people in Golarion mostly don't see it that way when they are not in Hell, but they mostly try to avoid thinking about it, and might believe false things about it. Hell lies relentlessly about what sends you there and what it's like. People in Cheliax mostly fear Hell and try not to think about it; people in other places do move mountains to avoid it. Lots of Lawful Evil people, in private, will admit that they are scared. The fact they don't atone or don't try to be Chaotic is about their suppressing thoughts of how they'll go to Hell in abject terror, not about their actual preference. Even if someone prefers Hell to nonexistence, once they've been in Hell for a little while they'll almost definitely change their mind. Even if someone does things that condemn them to Hell for the sake of protecting their children, so that their children will get to eternity in Axis instead of being eaten in Abaddon, they'll regret that choice and wish they'd chosen differently approximately as soon as Hell actually starts on them. Even if they don't for a hundred years, they will in a thousand years; even if they don't for a thousand years, they will in a hundred thousand years. People on Golarion don't know how to think about those scales. Hell deliberately discourages thinking on those scales. And it's hard to understand how bad Hell is until you are actually being tortured there; it is not a fact you can know any other way.  [Being tortured in Hell still doesn't let you do the interpersonal utility comparison we actually need.]  [Being tortured into regret of saving your children doesn't make it the wrong decision, still an awful one tho.]

Any viable plan to fix Hell, where nearly all but not all of this suffering is located, probably incurs some risk of killing everyone in the multiverse. The plan that incurs the least risk of that is probably destroying Avernus so that further people cannot go to Hell, which would not necessarily be permanent. The plans that are most definitely permanent, like killing Asmodeus and taking His job or trying to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation, incur a quite high risk of this. Plans to kill Asmodeus and take His job are probably more than 50% likely to result in His releasing Rovagug, which is probably at least 20% likely to destroy the universe and 80% likely to destroy Golarion, which may or may not be important for building Civilization within Pharasma's Creation.  [I'd maybe say more like 30% of destroying Golarion?  Currently put pretty low estimate on Golarion's importance if we can't otherwise beat Pharasma/gods.]

Plans to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation will, if they fail, fail either by Pharasma laughing at Keltham and crushing him in which case no improvements to the universe at all will be achieved, or in the entire universe being destroyed, possibly by Yog-Sothoth or something in an existentially horrifying Hell-like slow-personality-death way. Failure modes like that are very unlikely. If they succeed they might change not just Hell but also significant features of other planes that have a high rate of petitioners there being very unhappy or being eaten.  [Pharasma crush wouldn't seem that unlikely, if not for tropes.  Obvious ways to rig multiverse for destruction don't seem to me to run much Yog-Sothoth risk.]

Pharasma does not particularly share human values, and a universe run on rules set by Keltham would be much nicer for humans and similar kinds of mortals to live in, or not exist at all if making a universe that's substantially nicer to live in is not possible within these constraints.  [Didn't think I could set rules, but get them modified, sure.]

When Keltham experienced dying, he experienced showing up in Golarion. All people, when their soul is permanently deleted from existence, should anticipate having the experience of waking up somewhere else like he did. In the typical case this will not be worse than the lives that those people are currently living in Golarion. In particular the percentage of people who will turn out to have moment-of-death copies that are slaves who cannot suicide, or in Hell dimensions, or in incomprehensible conditions that alter their cognition as they kill them, is very low. The fact this is true means that being killed is much less bad than it would be if there were not copies of you in other places some of whom will remember the moment of your death. The fact this is true also means it is better to kill someone instantaneously than for them to die in a slow way that alters their personality and values, because if they die instantaneously then they'll experience continuity with a copy of them elsewhere which hasn't already changed in a way that changes their identity as a person.  [My case doesn't need to be typical, just in some sense normal or not in a distinguished region of low probability.]

It is undesirable that people will never see their families again, be separated from their children and husbands and wives, lose everything they have and were working towards, etc., but the undesirability of this is much much much smaller than the undesirability of Hell. It is probably not the case that most people would readily risk Hell to be present for their childrens' infancy and childhood, and if they say they would it is probably because they are underestimating the badness of Hell. Also under the present system many people are separated from their loved ones permanently anyway, and an ideal fix to Pharasma's Creation would improve the world along this metric.  [Not how system necessarily works.  Nice destinations can synchronize arrival of related people.]

It is not bad that people will exist about a billion times less, because it doesn't subjectively feel like anything to exist, and is not part of most human value systems in dath ilan. Those people who think it is part of their value systems would almost always reconsider if they could discuss the matter with a Keeper.  [Depends on if the less-existing were above or below Greater Reality average.  Obviously I currently guess Pharasma's Creation is below average.]  ['Keepers would disagree' kinda not how people in Civilization think, they'll add 'because it's invalid' and then eliminate the Keeper part.]

The gods as they are currently situated seem likely to stop any planet in Pharasma's Creation from building Civilization, or at least likely to stop it from spreading its discoveries to the rest of Pharasma's Creation. It seems reasonably likely that they're only presently allowing the scientific revolution because they don't see where it's headed. In the absence of intervention to change the rules and ensure Civilization is allowed to come about, it seems possible the inhabited planets within Creation will either persist for a very long time not being much better as a place to live, or else get destroyed the first time they get far enough out of equilibrium some gods want them gone, or else get destroyed by dath ilan or some force like it that is trying to maximize average happiness of instantiated minds across the multiverse. If that is a common value, which it probably is because everyone in dath ilan is very smart and it was approximately universal there, and if Pharasma's Creation is as vulnerable to destruction as it looks, then Pharasma's Creation is going to get destroyed sooner or later unless someone brings average quality of life there above a reasonable estimate of how bad the greater multiverse is.  [I'm not expecting dath ilan's utilityfunction to be common among things more powerful than Pharasma that connect to Pharasma's Creation.]

Pharasma is fundamentally the kind of entity who has no business running a multiverse, and so it is good, other things equal, to make her stop that, and it is worth at least some small probability of the multiverse being destroyed to wrest control of it from an alien entity that does not share human values unless Greater Reality is even worse. 

If the policy 'destroy bits of Greater Reality that you are not glad you landed is' is followed by all people waking up in unfamiliar universes, then maybe in the long run everyone who wakes up in an unfamiliar universe will wake up in a pretty good one, so the repeat application of this process makes it more and more of a good idea over time. The fact dath ilani were taught to think about the world this way, including game theory about cleaning up bits of Greater Reality you find yourself in where Zon-Kuthon asks for $10, suggests that dath ilan may already have calculated this is a good idea.  [Pretty sure they weren't teaching me things I'd need to know for Golarion.]  [This is mostly just a special case of rejecting bad deals, incl. Pharasma's non-deal.]

"Sounds like mostly gaps of omission, then, or mistakes of emphasis if you want to put it that way."

"Give me a second and I'll pass back the underlined version of yours, with some notes.  Shouldn't take much time and seems easier than saying."

In Pharasma's Creation there are many people who don't want to exist and do not have a good way to achieve this. The overwhelming majority of those are in Hell, but probably there are also some in Abaddon and the Abyss and maybe the Maelstrom and the dungeons of various people on Golarion and planets like Golarion, plus some who are suffering and uncertain enough about their afterlife not to kill themselves despite having access to the option. They often suffer slowly in a way that changes who they are as people and means that even if at some point they stop being conscious, a version of them that landed on another planet at that point would not be very much like the person they were before they suffered so much.  [Yep.  This is the core problem.  Pharasma's unfair deal would not be a destroy-the-multiverse issue if not for this.]

This is bad under approximately every conceivable value system. Under the value system most common in dath ilan, where everyone has thought about ethics a lot more and some people are smarter, this is so bad that killing approximately 9 people whose lives are eternal and good in order to prevent one person from suffering in this way is clearly justified. Dath ilani would practically all agree on this.  [This is a values-difference, not something where it matters what another place thinks.]

It is true that people in Golarion mostly don't see it that way when they are not in Hell, but they mostly try to avoid thinking about it, and might believe false things about it. Hell lies relentlessly about what sends you there and what it's like. People in Cheliax mostly fear Hell and try not to think about it; people in other places do move mountains to avoid it. Lots of Lawful Evil people, in private, will admit that they are scared. The fact they don't atone or don't try to be Chaotic is about their suppressing thoughts of how they'll go to Hell in abject terror, not about their actual preference. Even if someone prefers Hell to nonexistence, once they've been in Hell for a little while they'll almost definitely change their mind. Even if someone does things that condemn them to Hell for the sake of protecting their children, so that their children will get to eternity in Axis instead of being eaten in Abaddon, they'll regret that choice and wish they'd chosen differently approximately as soon as Hell actually starts on them. Even if they don't for a hundred years, they will in a thousand years; even if they don't for a thousand years, they will in a hundred thousand years. People on Golarion don't know how to think about those scales. Hell deliberately discourages thinking on those scales. And it's hard to understand how bad Hell is until you are actually being tortured there; it is not a fact you can know any other way.  [Being tortured in Hell still doesn't let you do the interpersonal utility comparison we actually need.]  [Being tortured into regret of saving your children doesn't make it the wrong decision, still an awful one tho.]

Any viable plan to fix Hell, where nearly all but not all of this suffering is located, probably incurs some risk of killing everyone in the multiverse. The plan that incurs the least risk of that is probably destroying Avernus so that further people cannot go to Hell, which would not necessarily be permanent. The plans that are most definitely permanent, like killing Asmodeus and taking His job or trying to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation, incur a quite high risk of this. Plans to kill Asmodeus and take His job are probably more than 50% likely to result in His releasing Rovagug, which is probably at least 20% likely to destroy the universe and 80% likely to destroy Golarion, which may or may not be important for building Civilization within Pharasma's Creation.  [I'd maybe say more like 30% of destroying Golarion?]  [Currently put pretty low estimate on Golarion's importance if we can't otherwise beat Pharasma/gods.]

Plans to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation will, if they fail, fail either by Pharasma laughing at Keltham and crushing him in which case no improvements to the universe at all will be achieved, or in the entire universe being destroyed, possibly by Yog-Sothoth or something in an existentially horrifying Hell-like slow-personality-death way. Failure modes like that are very unlikely. If they succeed they might change not just Hell but also significant features of other planes that have a high rate of petitioners there being very unhappy or being eaten.  [Pharasma crush wouldn't seem that unlikely, if not for tropes.  Obvious ways to rig multiverse for destruction don't seem to me to run much Yog-Sothoth risk.]

Pharasma does not particularly share human values, and a universe run on rules set by Keltham would be much nicer for humans and similar kinds of mortals to live in, or not exist at all if making a universe that's substantially nicer to live in is not possible within these constraints.  [Didn't think I could set rules, but get them modified, sure.]

When Keltham experienced dying, he experienced showing up in Golarion. All people, when their soul is permanently deleted from existence, should anticipate having the experience of waking up somewhere else like he did. In the typical case this will not be worse than the lives that those people are currently living in Golarion. In particular the percentage of people who will turn out to have moment-of-death copies that are slaves who cannot suicide, or in Hell dimensions, or in incomprehensible conditions that alter their cognition as they kill them, is very low. The fact this is true means that being killed is much less bad than it would be if there were not copies of you in other places some of whom will remember the moment of your death. The fact this is true also means it is better to kill someone instantaneously than for them to die in a slow way that alters their personality and values, because if they die instantaneously then they'll experience continuity with a copy of them elsewhere which hasn't already changed in a way that changes their identity as a person.  [My case doesn't need to be typical, just in some sense normal or not in a distinguished region of low probability.]

It is undesirable that people will never see their families again, be separated from their children and husbands and wives, lose everything they have and were working towards, etc., but the undesirability of this is much much much smaller than the undesirability of Hell. It is probably not the case that most people would readily risk Hell to be present for their childrens' infancy and childhood, and if they say they would it is probably because they are underestimating the badness of Hell. Also under the present system many people are separated from their loved ones permanently anyway, and an ideal fix to Pharasma's Creation would improve the world along this metric.  [Not how system necessarily works.  Nice destinations can synchronize arrival of related people.]

It is not bad that people will exist about a billion times less, because it doesn't subjectively feel like anything to exist, and is not part of most human value systems in dath ilan. Those people who think it is part of their value systems would almost always reconsider if they could discuss the matter with a Keeper.  [Depends on if the less-existing were above or below Greater Reality average.  Obviously I currently guess Pharasma's Creation is below average.]  ['Keepers would disagree' kinda not how people in Civilization think, they'll add 'because it's invalid' and then eliminate the Keeper part.]

The gods as they are currently situated seem likely to stop any planet in Pharasma's Creation from building Civilization, or at least likely to stop it from spreading its discoveries to the rest of Pharasma's Creation. It seems reasonably likely that they're only presently allowing the scientific revolution because they don't see where it's headed. In the absence of intervention to change the rules and ensure Civilization is allowed to come about, it seems possible the inhabited planets within Creation will either persist for a very long time not being much better as a place to live, or else get destroyed the first time they get far enough out of equilibrium some gods want them gone, or else get destroyed by dath ilan or some force like it that is trying to maximize average happiness of instantiated minds across the multiverse. If that is a common value, which it probably is because everyone in dath ilan is very smart and it was approximately universal there, and if Pharasma's Creation is as vulnerable to destruction as it looks, then Pharasma's Creation is going to get destroyed sooner or later unless someone brings average quality of life there above a reasonable estimate of how bad the greater multiverse is.  [I'm not expecting dath ilan's utilityfunction to be common among things more powerful than Pharasma that connect to Pharasma's Creation.]

Pharasma is fundamentally the kind of entity who has no business running a multiverse, and so it is good, other things equal, to make her stop that, and it is worth at least some small probability of the multiverse being destroyed to wrest control of it from an alien entity that does not share human values unless Greater Reality is even worse. 

If the policy 'destroy bits of Greater Reality that you are not glad you landed is' is followed by all people waking up in unfamiliar universes, then maybe in the long run everyone who wakes up in an unfamiliar universe will wake up in a pretty good one, so the repeat application of this process makes it more and more of a good idea over time. The fact dath ilani were taught to think about the world this way, including game theory about cleaning up bits of Greater Reality you find yourself in where Zon-Kuthon asks for $10, suggests that dath ilan may already have calculated this is a good idea.  [Pretty sure they weren't teaching me things I'd need to know for Golarion.]  [This is mostly just a special case of rejecting bad deals, incl. Pharasma's non-deal.]

"Sounds like mostly gaps of omission, then, or mistakes of emphasis if you want to put it that way."

"Give me a second and I'll pass back the underlined version of yours, with some notes.  Shouldn't take much time and seems easier than saying."

In Pharasma's Creation there are many people who don't want to exist and do not have a good way to achieve this. The overwhelming majority of those are in Hell, but probably there are also some in Abaddon and the Abyss and maybe the Maelstrom and the dungeons of various people on Golarion and planets like Golarion, plus some who are suffering and uncertain enough about their afterlife not to kill themselves despite having access to the option. They often suffer slowly in a way that changes who they are as people and means that even if at some point they stop being conscious, a version of them that landed on another planet at that point would not be very much like the person they were before they suffered so much.  [Yep.  This is the core problem.  Pharasma's unfair deal would not be a destroy-the-multiverse issue if not for this.]

This is bad under approximately every conceivable value system. Under the value system most common in dath ilan, where everyone has thought about ethics a lot more and some people are smarter, this is so bad that killing approximately 9 people whose lives are eternal and good in order to prevent one person from suffering in this way is clearly justified. Dath ilani would practically all agree on this.  [This is a values-difference, not something where it matters what another place thinks.]

It is true that people in Golarion mostly don't see it that way when they are not in Hell, but they mostly try to avoid thinking about it, and might believe false things about it. Hell lies relentlessly about what sends you there and what it's like. People in Cheliax mostly fear Hell and try not to think about it; people in other places do move mountains to avoid it. Lots of Lawful Evil people, in private, will admit that they are scared. The fact they don't atone or don't try to be Chaotic is about their suppressing thoughts of how they'll go to Hell in abject terror, not about their actual preference. Even if someone prefers Hell to nonexistence, once they've been in Hell for a little while they'll almost definitely change their mind. Even if someone does things that condemn them to Hell for the sake of protecting their children, so that their children will get to eternity in Axis instead of being eaten in Abaddon, they'll regret that choice and wish they'd chosen differently approximately as soon as Hell actually starts on them. Even if they don't for a hundred years, they will in a thousand years; even if they don't for a thousand years, they will in a hundred thousand years. People on Golarion don't know how to think about those scales. Hell deliberately discourages thinking on those scales. And it's hard to understand how bad Hell is until you are actually being tortured there; it is not a fact you can know any other way.  [Being tortured in Hell still doesn't let you do the interpersonal utility comparison we actually need.]  [Being tortured into regret of saving your children doesn't make it the wrong decision, still an awful one tho.]

Any viable plan to fix Hell, where nearly all but not all of this suffering is located, probably incurs some risk of killing everyone in the multiverse. The plan that incurs the least risk of that is probably destroying Avernus so that further people cannot go to Hell, which would not necessarily be permanent. The plans that are most definitely permanent, like killing Asmodeus and taking His job or trying to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation, incur a quite high risk of this. Plans to kill Asmodeus and take His job are probably more than 50% likely to result in His releasing Rovagug, which is probably at least 20% likely to destroy the universe and 80% likely to destroy Golarion, which may or may not be important for building Civilization within Pharasma's Creation.  [I'd maybe say more like 30% of destroying Golarion?]  [Currently put pretty low estimate on Golarion's importance if we can't otherwise beat Pharasma/gods.]

Plans to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation will, if they fail, fail either by Pharasma laughing at Keltham and crushing him in which case no improvements to the universe at all will be achieved, or in the entire universe being destroyed, possibly by Yog-Sothoth or something in an existentially horrifying Hell-like slow-personality-death way. Failure modes like that are very unlikely. If they succeed they might change not just Hell but also significant features of other planes that have a high rate of petitioners there being very unhappy or being eaten.  [Pharasma crush wouldn't seem that unlikely, if not for tropes.  Obvious ways to rig multiverse for destruction don't seem to me to run much Yog-Sothoth risk.]

Pharasma does not particularly share human values, and a universe run on rules set by Keltham would be much nicer for humans and similar kinds of mortals to live in, or not exist at all if making a universe that's substantially nicer to live in is not possible within these constraints.  [Didn't think I could set rules, but get them modified, sure.]

When Keltham experienced dying, he experienced showing up in Golarion. All people, when their soul is permanently deleted from existence, should anticipate having the experience of waking up somewhere else like he did. In the typical case this will not be worse than the lives that those people are currently living in Golarion. In particular the percentage of people who will turn out to have moment-of-death copies that are slaves who cannot suicide, or in Hell dimensions, or in incomprehensible conditions that alter their cognition as they kill them, is very low. The fact this is true means that being killed is much less bad than it would be if there were not copies of you in other places some of whom will remember the moment of your death. The fact this is true also means it is better to kill someone instantaneously than for them to die in a slow way that alters their personality and values, because if they die instantaneously then they'll experience continuity with a copy of them elsewhere which hasn't already changed in a way that changes their identity as a person.  [My case doesn't need to be typical, just in some sense normal or not in a distinguished region of low probability.]

It is undesirable that people will never see their families again, be separated from their children and husbands and wives, lose everything they have and were working towards, etc., but the undesirability of this is much much much smaller than the undesirability of Hell. It is probably not the case that most people would readily risk Hell to be present for their childrens' infancy and childhood, and if they say they would it is probably because they are underestimating the badness of Hell. Also under the present system many people are separated from their loved ones permanently anyway, and an ideal fix to Pharasma's Creation would improve the world along this metric.  [Not how system necessarily works.  Nice destinations can synchronize arrival of related people.]

It is not bad that people will exist about a billion times less, because it doesn't subjectively feel like anything to exist, and is not part of most human value systems in dath ilan. Those people who think it is part of their value systems would almost always reconsider if they could discuss the matter with a Keeper.  [Depends on if the less-existing were above or below Greater Reality average.  Obviously I currently guess Pharasma's Creation is below average.]  ['Keepers would disagree' kinda not how people in Civilization think, they'll add 'because it's invalid' and then eliminate the Keeper part.]

The gods as they are currently situated seem likely to stop any planet in Pharasma's Creation from building Civilization, or at least likely to stop it from spreading its discoveries to the rest of Pharasma's Creation. It seems reasonably likely that they're only presently allowing the scientific revolution because they don't see where it's headed. In the absence of intervention to change the rules and ensure Civilization is allowed to come about, it seems possible the inhabited planets within Creation will either persist for a very long time not being much better as a place to live, or else get destroyed the first time they get far enough out of equilibrium some gods want them gone, or else get destroyed by dath ilan or some force like it that is trying to maximize average happiness of instantiated minds across the multiverse. If that is a common value, which it probably is because everyone in dath ilan is very smart and it was approximately universal there, and if Pharasma's Creation is as vulnerable to destruction as it looks, then Pharasma's Creation is going to get destroyed sooner or later unless someone brings average quality of life there above a reasonable estimate of how bad the greater multiverse is.  [I'm not expecting dath ilan's utilityfunction to be common among things more powerful than Pharasma that connect to Pharasma's Creation.]

Pharasma is fundamentally the kind of entity who has no business running a multiverse, and so it is good, other things equal, to make her stop that, and it is worth at least some small probability of the multiverse being destroyed to wrest control of it from an alien entity that does not share human values unless Greater Reality is even worse.  [Yep.]

If the policy 'destroy bits of Greater Reality that you are not glad you landed is' is followed by all people waking up in unfamiliar universes, then maybe in the long run everyone who wakes up in an unfamiliar universe will wake up in a pretty good one, so the repeat application of this process makes it more and more of a good idea over time. The fact dath ilani were taught to think about the world this way, including game theory about cleaning up bits of Greater Reality you find yourself in where Zon-Kuthon asks for $10, suggests that dath ilan may already have calculated this is a good idea.  [Pretty sure they weren't teaching me things I'd need to know for Golarion.]  [This is mostly just a special case of rejecting bad deals, incl. Pharasma's non-deal.]

"Sounds like mostly gaps of omission, then, or mistakes of emphasis if you want to put it that way."

"Give me a second and I'll pass back the underlined version of yours, with some notes.  Shouldn't take much time and seems easier than saying."

In Pharasma's Creation there are many people who don't want to exist and do not have a good way to achieve this. The overwhelming majority of those are in Hell, but probably there are also some in Abaddon and the Abyss and maybe the Maelstrom and the dungeons of various people on Golarion and planets like Golarion, plus some who are suffering and uncertain enough about their afterlife not to kill themselves despite having access to the option. They often suffer slowly in a way that changes who they are as people and means that even if at some point they stop being conscious, a version of them that landed on another planet at that point would not be very much like the person they were before they suffered so much.  [Yep.  This is the core problem.  Pharasma's unfair deal would not be a destroy-the-multiverse issue if not for this.]

This is bad under approximately every conceivable value system. Under the value system most common in dath ilan, where everyone has thought about ethics a lot more and some people are smarter, this is so bad that killing approximately 9 people whose lives are eternal and good in order to prevent one person from suffering in this way is clearly justified. Dath ilani would practically all agree on this.  [This is a values-difference, not something where it matters what another place thinks.]

It is true that people in Golarion mostly don't see it that way when they are not in Hell, but they mostly try to avoid thinking about it, and might believe false things about it. Hell lies relentlessly about what sends you there and what it's like. People in Cheliax mostly fear Hell and try not to think about it; people in other places do move mountains to avoid it. Lots of Lawful Evil people, in private, will admit that they are scared. The fact they don't atone or don't try to be Chaotic is about their suppressing thoughts of how they'll go to Hell in abject terror, not about their actual preference. Even if someone prefers Hell to nonexistence, once they've been in Hell for a little while they'll almost definitely change their mind. Even if someone does things that condemn them to Hell for the sake of protecting their children, so that their children will get to eternity in Axis instead of being eaten in Abaddon, they'll regret that choice and wish they'd chosen differently approximately as soon as Hell actually starts on them. Even if they don't for a hundred years, they will in a thousand years; even if they don't for a thousand years, they will in a hundred thousand years. People on Golarion don't know how to think about those scales. Hell deliberately discourages thinking on those scales. And it's hard to understand how bad Hell is until you are actually being tortured there; it is not a fact you can know any other way.  [Being tortured in Hell still doesn't let you do the interpersonal utility comparison we actually need.]  [Being tortured into regret of saving your children doesn't make it the wrong decision, still an awful one tho.]

Any viable plan to fix Hell, where nearly all but not all of this suffering is located, probably incurs some risk of killing everyone in the multiverse. The plan that incurs the least risk of that is probably destroying Avernus so that further people cannot go to Hell, which would not necessarily be permanent. The plans that are most definitely permanent, like killing Asmodeus and taking His job or trying to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation, incur a quite high risk of this. Plans to kill Asmodeus and take His job are probably more than 50% likely to result in His releasing Rovagug, which is probably at least 20% likely to destroy the universe and 80% likely to destroy Golarion, which may or may not be important for building Civilization within Pharasma's Creation.  [I'd maybe say more like 30% of destroying Golarion?]  [Currently put low estimate on Golarion's importance if we can't otherwise beat Pharasma/gods.]

Plans to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation will, if they fail, fail either by Pharasma laughing at Keltham and crushing him in which case no improvements to the universe at all will be achieved, or in the entire universe being destroyed, possibly by Yog-Sothoth or something in an existentially horrifying Hell-like slow-personality-death way. Failure modes like that are very unlikely. If they succeed they might change not just Hell but also significant features of other planes that have a high rate of petitioners there being very unhappy or being eaten.  [Pharasma crush wouldn't seem that unlikely, if not for tropes.  Obvious ways to rig multiverse for destruction don't seem to me to run much Yog-Sothoth risk.]

Pharasma does not particularly share human values, and a universe run on rules set by Keltham would be much nicer for humans and similar kinds of mortals to live in, or not exist at all if making a universe that's substantially nicer to live in is not possible within these constraints.  [Didn't think I could set rules, but get them modified, sure.]

When Keltham experienced dying, he experienced showing up in Golarion. All people, when their soul is permanently deleted from existence, should anticipate having the experience of waking up somewhere else like he did. In the typical case this will not be worse than the lives that those people are currently living in Golarion. In particular the percentage of people who will turn out to have moment-of-death copies that are slaves who cannot suicide, or in Hell dimensions, or in incomprehensible conditions that alter their cognition as they kill them, is very low. The fact this is true means that being killed is much less bad than it would be if there were not copies of you in other places some of whom will remember the moment of your death. The fact this is true also means it is better to kill someone instantaneously than for them to die in a slow way that alters their personality and values, because if they die instantaneously then they'll experience continuity with a copy of them elsewhere which hasn't already changed in a way that changes their identity as a person.  [My case doesn't need to be typical, just in some sense normal or not in a distinguished region of low probability.]

It is undesirable that people will never see their families again, be separated from their children and husbands and wives, lose everything they have and were working towards, etc., but the undesirability of this is much much much smaller than the undesirability of Hell. It is probably not the case that most people would readily risk Hell to be present for their childrens' infancy and childhood, and if they say they would it is probably because they are underestimating the badness of Hell. Also under the present system many people are separated from their loved ones permanently anyway, and an ideal fix to Pharasma's Creation would improve the world along this metric.  [Not how system necessarily works.  Nice destinations can synchronize arrival of related people.]

It is not bad that people will exist about a billion times less, because it doesn't subjectively feel like anything to exist, and is not part of most human value systems in dath ilan. Those people who think it is part of their value systems would almost always reconsider if they could discuss the matter with a Keeper.  [Depends on if the less-existing were above or below Greater Reality average.  Obviously I currently guess Pharasma's Creation is below average.]  ['Keepers would disagree' kinda not how people in Civilization think, they'll add 'because it's invalid' and then eliminate the Keeper part.]

The gods as they are currently situated seem likely to stop any planet in Pharasma's Creation from building Civilization, or at least likely to stop it from spreading its discoveries to the rest of Pharasma's Creation. It seems reasonably likely that they're only presently allowing the scientific revolution because they don't see where it's headed. In the absence of intervention to change the rules and ensure Civilization is allowed to come about, it seems possible the inhabited planets within Creation will either persist for a very long time not being much better as a place to live, or else get destroyed the first time they get far enough out of equilibrium some gods want them gone, or else get destroyed by dath ilan or some force like it that is trying to maximize average happiness of instantiated minds across the multiverse. If that is a common value, which it probably is because everyone in dath ilan is very smart and it was approximately universal there, and if Pharasma's Creation is as vulnerable to destruction as it looks, then Pharasma's Creation is going to get destroyed sooner or later unless someone brings average quality of life there above a reasonable estimate of how bad the greater multiverse is.  [I'm not expecting dath ilan's utilityfunction to be common among things more powerful than Pharasma that connect to Pharasma's Creation.]

Pharasma is fundamentally the kind of entity who has no business running a multiverse, and so it is good, other things equal, to make her stop that, and it is worth at least some small probability of the multiverse being destroyed to wrest control of it from an alien entity that does not share human values unless Greater Reality is even worse.  [Yep.]

If the policy 'destroy bits of Greater Reality that you are not glad you landed is' is followed by all people waking up in unfamiliar universes, then maybe in the long run everyone who wakes up in an unfamiliar universe will wake up in a pretty good one, so the repeat application of this process makes it more and more of a good idea over time. The fact dath ilani were taught to think about the world this way, including game theory about cleaning up bits of Greater Reality you find yourself in where Zon-Kuthon asks for $10, suggests that dath ilan may already have calculated this is a good idea.  [Pretty sure they weren't teaching me things I'd need to know for Golarion.]  [This is mostly just a special case of rejecting bad deals, incl. Pharasma's non-deal.]

"Sounds like mostly gaps of omission, then, or mistakes of emphasis if you want to put it that way."

"Give me a second and I'll pass back the underlined version of yours, with some notes.  Shouldn't take much time and seems easier than saying."

In Pharasma's Creation there are many people who don't want to exist and do not have a good way to achieve this. The overwhelming majority of those are in Hell, but probably there are also some in Abaddon and the Abyss and maybe the Maelstrom and the dungeons of various people on Golarion and planets like Golarion, plus some who are suffering and uncertain enough about their afterlife not to kill themselves despite having access to the option. They often suffer slowly in a way that changes who they are as people and means that even if at some point they stop being conscious, a version of them that landed on another planet at that point would not be very much like the person they were before they suffered so much.  [Yep.  This is the core problem.  Pharasma's unfair deal would not be a destroy-the-multiverse issue if not for this.]

This is bad under approximately every conceivable value system. Under the value system most common in dath ilan, where everyone has thought about ethics a lot more and some people are smarter, this is so bad that killing approximately 9 people whose lives are eternal and good in order to prevent one person from suffering in this way is clearly justified. Dath ilani would practically all agree on this.  [This is a values-difference, not something where it matters what another place thinks.]

It is true that people in Golarion mostly don't see it that way when they are not in Hell, but they mostly try to avoid thinking about it, and might believe false things about it. Hell lies relentlessly about what sends you there and what it's like. People in Cheliax mostly fear Hell and try not to think about it; people in other places do move mountains to avoid it. Lots of Lawful Evil people, in private, will admit that they are scared. The fact they don't atone or don't try to be Chaotic is about their suppressing thoughts of how they'll go to Hell in abject terror, not about their actual preference. Even if someone prefers Hell to nonexistence, once they've been in Hell for a little while they'll almost definitely change their mind. Even if someone does things that condemn them to Hell for the sake of protecting their children, so that their children will get to eternity in Axis instead of being eaten in Abaddon, they'll regret that choice and wish they'd chosen differently approximately as soon as Hell actually starts on them. Even if they don't for a hundred years, they will in a thousand years; even if they don't for a thousand years, they will in a hundred thousand years. People on Golarion don't know how to think about those scales. Hell deliberately discourages thinking on those scales. And it's hard to understand how bad Hell is until you are actually being tortured there; it is not a fact you can know any other way.  [Being tortured in Hell still doesn't let you do the interpersonal utility comparison we actually need.]  [Being tortured into regret of saving your children doesn't make it the wrong decision, still an awful one tho.]

Any viable plan to fix Hell, where nearly all but not all of this suffering is located, probably incurs some risk of killing everyone in the multiverse. The plan that incurs the least risk of that is probably destroying Avernus so that further people cannot go to Hell, which would not necessarily be permanent. The plans that are most definitely permanent, like killing Asmodeus and taking His job or trying to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation, incur a quite high risk of this. Plans to kill Asmodeus and take His job are probably more than 50% likely to result in His releasing Rovagug, which is probably at least 20% likely to destroy the universe and 80% likely to destroy Golarion, which may or may not be important for building Civilization within Pharasma's Creation.  [I'd maybe say more like 30% of destroying Golarion?]  [Currently put low estimate on Golarion's importance if we can't otherwise beat Pharasma/gods.]

Plans to force Pharasma to change the rules of Her Creation will, if they fail, fail either by Pharasma laughing at Keltham and crushing him in which case no improvements to the universe at all will be achieved, or in the entire universe being destroyed, possibly by Yog-Sothoth or something in an existentially horrifying Hell-like slow-personality-death way. Failure modes like that are very unlikely. If they succeed they might change not just Hell but also significant features of other planes that have a high rate of petitioners there being very unhappy or being eaten.  [Pharasma crush wouldn't seem that unlikely, if not for tropes.]  [Obvious ways to rig multiverse for destruction don't seem to me to run much Yog-Sothoth risk.]

Pharasma does not particularly share human values, and a universe run on rules set by Keltham would be much nicer for humans and similar kinds of mortals to live in, or not exist at all if making a universe that's substantially nicer to live in is not possible within these constraints.  [Didn't think I could set rules, but get them modified, sure.]

When Keltham experienced dying, he experienced showing up in Golarion. All people, when their soul is permanently deleted from existence, should anticipate having the experience of waking up somewhere else like he did. In the typical case this will not be worse than the lives that those people are currently living in Golarion. In particular the percentage of people who will turn out to have moment-of-death copies that are slaves who cannot suicide, or in Hell dimensions, or in incomprehensible conditions that alter their cognition as they kill them, is very low. The fact this is true means that being killed is much less bad than it would be if there were not copies of you in other places some of whom will remember the moment of your death. The fact this is true also means it is better to kill someone instantaneously than for them to die in a slow way that alters their personality and values, because if they die instantaneously then they'll experience continuity with a copy of them elsewhere which hasn't already changed in a way that changes their identity as a person.  [My case doesn't need to be typical, just in some sense normal or not in a distinguished region of low probability.]

It is undesirable that people will never see their families again, be separated from their children and husbands and wives, lose everything they have and were working towards, etc., but the undesirability of this is much much much smaller than the undesirability of Hell. It is probably not the case that most people would readily risk Hell to be present for their childrens' infancy and childhood, and if they say they would it is probably because they are underestimating the badness of Hell. Also under the present system many people are separated from their loved ones permanently anyway, and an ideal fix to Pharasma's Creation would improve the world along this metric.  [Not how system necessarily works.  Nice destinations can synchronize arrival of related people.]

It is not bad that people will exist about a billion times less, because it doesn't subjectively feel like anything to exist, and is not part of most human value systems in dath ilan. Those people who think it is part of their value systems would almost always reconsider if they could discuss the matter with a Keeper.  [Depends on if the less-existing were above or below Greater Reality average.  Obviously I currently guess Pharasma's Creation is below average.]  ['Keepers would disagree' kinda not how people in Civilization think, they'll add 'because it's invalid' and then eliminate the Keeper part.]

The gods as they are currently situated seem likely to stop any planet in Pharasma's Creation from building Civilization, or at least likely to stop it from spreading its discoveries to the rest of Pharasma's Creation. It seems reasonably likely that they're only presently allowing the scientific revolution because they don't see where it's headed. In the absence of intervention to change the rules and ensure Civilization is allowed to come about, it seems possible the inhabited planets within Creation will either persist for a very long time not being much better as a place to live, or else get destroyed the first time they get far enough out of equilibrium some gods want them gone, or else get destroyed by dath ilan or some force like it that is trying to maximize average happiness of instantiated minds across the multiverse. If that is a common value, which it probably is because everyone in dath ilan is very smart and it was approximately universal there, and if Pharasma's Creation is as vulnerable to destruction as it looks, then Pharasma's Creation is going to get destroyed sooner or later unless someone brings average quality of life there above a reasonable estimate of how bad the greater multiverse is.  [I'm not expecting dath ilan's utilityfunction to be common among things more powerful than Pharasma that connect to Pharasma's Creation.]

Pharasma is fundamentally the kind of entity who has no business running a multiverse, and so it is good, other things equal, to make her stop that, and it is worth at least some small probability of the multiverse being destroyed to wrest control of it from an alien entity that does not share human values unless Greater Reality is even worse.  [Yep.]

If the policy 'destroy bits of Greater Reality that you are not glad you landed is' is followed by all people waking up in unfamiliar universes, then maybe in the long run everyone who wakes up in an unfamiliar universe will wake up in a pretty good one, so the repeat application of this process makes it more and more of a good idea over time. The fact dath ilani were taught to think about the world this way, including game theory about cleaning up bits of Greater Reality you find yourself in where Zon-Kuthon asks for $10, suggests that dath ilan may already have calculated this is a good idea.  [Pretty sure they weren't teaching me things I'd need to know for Golarion.]  [This is mostly just a special case of rejecting bad deals, incl. Pharasma's non-deal.]