Keltham will talk a bit more about what kind of emotions Civilization is dubious about, and how they often try nonetheless to 'rescue' them, give them a place somewhere in the utilityfunction.

It's clear that Civilization is very impressed with itself, about how much of a hand it graciously holds out to offer tiny scraps of indulgence to people's impulses to pride, glory, power and cruelty.

It's equally clear that Cheliax would not be impressed at all with how far Civilization gets on self-actualizing those parts of people.

Oh, and Keltham does happen to mention, in passing, that if you meet aliens who just really really want to invert your utility function unless you pay them 5gp, Civilization's strategic reply is to remove them from reality by any means necessary, even if they're only asking 5gp.  Yes, even if the aliens have a plausible story about how they totally evolved with a desire like that and it's not a threat at all.  Somebody probably thought they were being clever, at some point along the way.  They probably at some point were imagining how you'd respond to a situation like that by sighing and paying them the 5gp, when they at some point made a decision about whether or not to go around really really wanting to invert others utilityfunctions.

The response is not to invert the aliens' utilityfunction, note, that would be contributing to the problem of making Reality an unpretty place.  You just remove the aliens from Reality, even if you have to destroy yourself in the process; Reality will be better off if the sections of it containing utilityfunction inverters just don't exist for very long.  And if the aliens thought, at some point, that you'd just pay them 5gp, more fools they.  In broken possible worlds like that, where people thought the wrong thing about how you'd act, and where the main desideratum is to have those possibilities not exist in the first place, there is a place for modified-'spite' where you are willing to sacrifice your own existence to end theirs.  Just not so much spite that you start thinking about how to invert the aliens' own utilityfunctions, to try to 'punish' them, because then you're just becoming part of the problem.

Again, this isn't about trying to threaten the aliens into behaving more nicely; it's about being the sort of Civilization that, if it finds itself in a rare broken piece of Reality like that, will try to remove any utilityfunction-inverters from existence.  Aliens thinking about whether or not to go on being utilityfunction-inverters are welcome to take that into account, or not, as they please; Civilization has made its own choice there.

...actually now that Keltham is saying all this, he's kind of seeing why Lawful Good civilizations in Golarion might just tell people never to feel spite, never to feel vengeful, never to express any fury or indignation, because the kind of carefully detailed guidelines he's been laying out are plausibly beyond the ability of Intelligence 10 people to understand or follow.

Keltham will talk a bit more about what kind of emotions Civilization is dubious about, and how they often try nonetheless to 'rescue' them, give them a place somewhere in the utilityfunction.

It's clear that Civilization is very impressed with itself, about how much of a hand it graciously holds out to offer tiny scraps of indulgence to people's impulses to pride, glory, power and cruelty.

It's equally clear that Cheliax would not be impressed at all with how far Civilization gets on self-actualizing those parts of people.

Oh, and Keltham does happen to mention, in passing, that if you meet aliens who just really really want to invert your utility function unless you pay them 5gp, Civilization's strategic reply is to remove them from reality by any means necessary, even if they're only asking 5gp.  Yes, even if the aliens have a plausible story about how they totally evolved with a desire like that and it's not a threat at all.  Somebody probably thought they were being clever, at some point along the way.  They probably at some point were imagining how you'd respond to a situation like that by sighing and paying them the 5gp, when they at some point made a decision about whether or not to go around really really wanting to invert others utilityfunctions.

The response is not to invert the aliens' utilityfunction, note, that would be contributing to the problem of making Reality an unpretty place.  You just remove the aliens from Reality, even if you have to destroy yourself in the process; Reality will be better off if the sections of it containing utilityfunction inverters just don't exist for very long.  And if the aliens thought, at some point, that you'd just pay them 5gp, more fools they.  In broken possible worlds like that, where people thought the wrong thing about how you'd act, and where the main desideratum is to have those possibilities not exist in the first place, there is a place for modified-'spite' where you are willing to sacrifice your own existence to end theirs.  Just not so much spite that you start thinking about how to invert the aliens' own utilityfunctions, to try to 'punish' them, because then you're just becoming part of the problem.

Again, this isn't about trying to threaten the aliens into behaving more nicely; it's about being the sort of Civilization that, if it finds itself in a rare broken piece of Reality like that, will try to remove any utilityfunction-inverters from existence.  Aliens thinking about whether or not to go on being utilityfunction-inverters are welcome to take that into account, or not, as they please; Civilization has made its own choice there.

...actually now that Keltham is saying all this, he's kind of seeing why Lawful Good civilizations in Golarion might just tell people never to feel spite, never to feel vengeful, never to express any fury or indignation, because the kind of carefully detailed guidelines he's been laying out are plausibly beyond the ability of Intelligence 10 people to understand or follow.

Keltham will talk a bit more about what kind of emotions Civilization is dubious about, and how they often try nonetheless to 'rescue' them, give them a place somewhere in the utilityfunction.

It's clear that Civilization is very impressed with itself, about how much of a hand it graciously holds out to offer tiny scraps of indulgence to people's impulses to pride, glory, power and cruelty.

It's equally clear that Cheliax would not be impressed at all with how far Civilization gets on self-actualizing those parts of people.

Oh, and Keltham does happen to mention, in passing, that if you meet aliens who just really really want to invert your utility function unless you pay them 5gp, Civilization's strategic reply is to remove them from reality by any means necessary, even if they're only asking 5gp.  Yes, even if the aliens have a plausible story about how they totally evolved with a desire like that and it's not a threat at all.  Somebody probably thought they were being clever, at some point along the way.  They probably at some point were imagining how you'd respond to a situation like that by sighing and paying them the 5gp, when they at some point made a decision about whether or not to go around really really wanting to invert others utilityfunctions.

The response is not to invert the aliens' utilityfunction, note, that would be contributing to the problem of making Reality an unpretty place.  You just remove the aliens from Reality, even if you have to destroy yourself in the process; Reality will be better off if the sections of it containing utilityfunction inverters just don't exist for very long.  And if the aliens thought, at some point, that you'd just pay them 5gp, more fools they.  In broken possible worlds like that, where people thought the wrong thing about how you'd act, and where the main desideratum is to have those possibilities not exist in the first place, there is a place for modified-'spite' where you are willing to sacrifice your own existence to end theirs.  Just not so much spite that you start thinking about how to invert the aliens' own utilityfunctions, to try to 'punish' them, because then you're just becoming part of the problem.

Again, this isn't about trying to threaten the aliens into behaving more nicely; it's about being the sort of Civilization that, if it finds itself in a rare broken piece of Reality like that, will try to remove any utilityfunction-inverters from existence.  Aliens thinking about whether or not to go on being utilityfunction-inverters are welcome to take that into account, or not, as they please; Civilization has made its own choice there.

...actually now that Keltham is saying all this, he's kind of seeing why Lawful Good civilizations in Golarion might just tell people never to feel spite, never to feel vengeful, never to express any fury or indignation, because the kind of carefully detailed guidelines he's been laying out are plausibly beyond the ability of Intelligence 10 people to understand or follow.  Or even Intelligence 16, if you don't come from a Civilization full of people much smarter than that.

Keltham will talk a bit more about what kind of emotions Civilization is dubious about, and how they often try nonetheless to 'rescue' them, give them a place somewhere in the utilityfunction.

It's clear that Civilization is very impressed with itself, about how much of a hand it graciously holds out to offer tiny scraps of indulgence to people's impulses to pride, glory, power and cruelty.

It's equally clear that Cheliax would not be impressed at all with how far Civilization gets on self-actualizing those parts of people.

Oh, and Keltham does happen to mention, in passing, that if you meet aliens who just really really want to do the opposite of your utility function unless you pay them 5gp, Civilization's strategic reply is to remove them from reality by any means necessary, even if they're only asking 5gp.  Yes, even if the aliens have a plausible story about how they totally evolved with a desire like that and it's not a threat at all.  Somebody probably thought they were being clever, at some point along the way.  They probably at some point were imagining how you'd respond to a situation like that by sighing and paying them the 5gp, when they at some point made a decision about whether or not to go around really honestly wanting to invert others utilityfunctions.

The response is not to pessimize the aliens' utilityfunction, note, that would be contributing to the problem of making Reality an unpretty place.  You just remove the aliens from Reality, even if you have to destroy yourself in the process; Reality will be better off if the sections of it containing utilityfunction inverters just don't exist for very long.  And if the aliens thought, at some point, that you'd just pay them 5gp, more fools they.  In broken possible worlds like that, where people thought the wrong thing about how you'd act, and where the main desideratum is to have those possibilities not exist in the first place, there is a place for modified-'spite' where you are willing to sacrifice your own existence to end theirs.  Just not so much spite that you start thinking about how to anti-optimize the aliens' own utilityfunctions, to try to 'punish' them, because then you're just becoming part of the problem.

Again, this isn't about trying to threaten the aliens into behaving more nicely; it's about being the sort of Civilization that, if it finds itself in a rare broken piece of Reality like that, will try to remove any utilityfunction-inverters from existence.  Aliens thinking about whether or not to go on being utilityfunction-inverters are welcome to take that into account, or not, as they please; Civilization has made its own choice there.

...actually now that Keltham is saying all this, he's kind of seeing why Lawful Good civilizations in Golarion might just tell people never to feel spite, never to feel vengeful, never to express any fury or indignation, because the kind of carefully detailed guidelines he's been laying out are plausibly beyond the ability of Intelligence 10 people to understand or follow.  Or even Intelligence 16, if you don't come from a Civilization full of people much smarter than that.