Edit History (Oldest to Newest)
Version: 1
Fields Changed (Original)
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building from herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels strangely calm and exultant at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which things the Conspiracy would show him, and he predicts that accurately, he knows he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe them about how the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following that rule is truly indistinguishable from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest they've already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows him in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she does will carry on it the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully, and if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, he wins.

But she can try to lose it very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

Version: 2
Fields Changed Content
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building from herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels strangely calm and exultant at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which things the Conspiracy would show him, and he predicts that accurately, he knows he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe them about how the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following that rule is truly indistinguishable from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest they've already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows him in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she does will carry on it the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully, and if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, he wins.

But she can try to lose very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

Version: 3
Fields Changed Content
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building from herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels strangely calm and exultant at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which things the Conspiracy would show him, and he predicts that accurately, he knows he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe them about who the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following that rule is truly indistinguishable from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest they've already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows him in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she does will carry on it the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully, and if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, he wins.

But she can try to lose very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

Version: 4
Fields Changed Content
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building from herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels strangely calm and exultant at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which things the Conspiracy would show him, and he predicts that accurately, he'll learn he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the true Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe someone about who the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following that rule is truly indistinguishable to them from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest they've already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she does will carry on it the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully.  And if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, if he sees enough the true shape of the shadowy hypothetical being played against him, he wins.

But she can try to lose very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

That is the game between dath ilani; and if Asmodia isn't one herself, well, she is no longer entirely not one, either.

Version: 5
Fields Changed Content
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building from herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels strangely calm and exultant at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which things the Conspiracy would show him, and he predicts that accurately, he'll learn he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the true Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe someone about who the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following that rule is truly indistinguishable to them from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest they've already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she does will carry on it the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully.  And if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, if he sees enough the true shape of the shadowy hypothetical being playing against him, he wins.

But she can try to lose very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

That is the game between dath ilani; and if Asmodia isn't one herself, well, she is no longer entirely not one, either.

Version: 6
Fields Changed Content
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building from herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels exultant and strangely calm at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which things the Conspiracy would show him, and he predicts that accurately, he'll learn he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the true Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe someone about who the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following that rule is truly indistinguishable to them from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest they've already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she does will carry on it the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully.  And if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, if he sees enough the true shape of the shadowy hypothetical being playing against him, he wins.

But she can try to lose very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

That is the game between dath ilani; and if Asmodia isn't one herself, well, she is no longer entirely not one, either.

Version: 7
Fields Changed Content
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building from herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels exultant and strangely calm at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which facts the Conspiracy would choose to reveal to him, and he predicts that accurately, he'll learn he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the true Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe someone about who the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following those rules is truly indistinguishable to them from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest Cheliax has already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she commands will carry the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully.  And if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, if he sees enough the true shape of the shadowy hypothetical being playing against him, he wins.

But she can try to lose very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

That is the game between dath ilani; and if Asmodia isn't one herself, well, she is no longer entirely not one, either.

Version: 8
Fields Changed Content
Updated
Content

There are three minutes left on her allocated hour when Asmodia looks up from the example she was building for herself, about somebody who wants to convince you who murdered somebody else, and the clues are all ways that a coin-spin can land, and they're only telling you about the coin-spins that landed Queen and none of the ones that landed Text.

She feels exultant and strangely calm at the same time.

She was right.  #7 is the key.  Not just a key, the key.  Maybe there are much more complicated things that true dath ilani know about this game, but Asmodia has the key to the basic rules.

It's very simple, in the end:  The probability of the coin landing Queen on the third coin-spin isn't the same as the probability of somebody telling you about how the third coin-spin landed Queen.

Maybe in the end it's just common sense about how lying works if you're not being blatant about it, except that now Asmodia knows how to mate that common sense with the dath ilani numbers that they use to track the subtle shifts of probability.

Keltham isn't just thinking about what the Conspiracy is showing him, telling him.  He's thinking about the probability that the world he's inside decides to show him and tell him those things.

If Keltham can figure out which facts the Conspiracy would choose to reveal to him, and he predicts that accurately, he'll learn he's inside the Conspiracy world.  You can't expect to be convinced of things by a Conspiracy that you know is a Conspiracy.  Not unless they pass some test that the true Conspiracy shouldn't be able to pass, like, you can believe someone about who the murderer is, if they show you all the coinspins, or even if they show you enough coinspins that the hidden ones couldn't matter even if they were all Text.

If the dath ilani correctly imagines the Conspiracy, if they figure out the rules the Conspiracy is actually following, they win; unless the Conspiracy following those rules is truly indistinguishable to them from the Ordinary world, and then it's a tie.  And that's a contest Cheliax has already lost, because they've already screwed up alter-Cheliax a few times and Keltham may remember those.

If Asmodia can figure out what Keltham is thinking and - not show him a Conspiracy that picks which coinflips it shows in a way that Keltham can figure out - if the true Conspiracy is still using rules Keltham hasn't figured out - then she can convince Keltham of the Ordinary world, make him shift his probabilities in that direction.  Which she has now proven, can only happen if Keltham wouldn't predict that, even thinking himself to be in the Conspiracy world the way that he currently suspects the Conspiracy to work.


...it's inherently a losing game.  The more she shows Keltham, day after day, the more Keltham knows how the Conspiracy must be thinking, if there is in fact a Conspiracy.  Everything she commands will carry the signature of the way Asmodia thinks, because she can't actually contain the whole alter-Cheliax within herself and truthfully.  And if Keltham ever imagines Asmodia fully, if he sees enough the true shape of the shadowy hypothetical being playing against him, he wins.

But she can try to lose very slowly.  Maybe, even, slowly enough.

That is the game between dath ilani; and if Asmodia isn't one herself, well, she is no longer entirely not one, either.